The Cash-Landrum case, 1980:

VL: No, I wasn't looking for it. I was too scared... put it that way, cause I ain't going to say I wasn't scared, cause (chuckles) I was scared, I guess I'm a coward, but I was scared.

CJC: (to Betty Cash) OK, can you recall if you saw more than one flame at a time?

BC: I wasn't looking at the flames, I was looking for a way out.

CJC: I understand. Ah... the reason I'm asking... did it have one engine or several engines or... from what you could tell?

BC: I wish they would have asked me that when I was under hypnotism.

(pause)

CJC: OK. Prior to this incident, Ms. Landrum, have you been treated for any illness or problems?

VL: No sir.

CJC: Have you been in the operation... ah, in the hospital for an operation?

VL: Well ah, about twenty... three years, 22 years ago, I had hysterectomy. Other than that, I have never had nothing really wrong with me till this.

CJC: Now would you please give us your address and your age?, your current address.

VL: My current address is 506 West Clayton, Dayton Texas. The ZIP code is 77535, and I'm 57 years old.

CJC: OK. Um... Terry, do you have any questions?... Oh, one other question: who is the doctor that's been treating you?

VL: Ah... Dr. Chandler in Liberty.

CJC: Liberty Texas?

VL: Um humm... and he's only an eye doctor, but he... I got all faith in him because he has a doctor that work with him that is uh... is one (unintelligible) one of the best I think, that uh... and he told me that when he couldn't do for my eyes anymore that when he felt he wasn't capable of giving me what I needed that he would turn me over to this doctor and uh... you can't ask for nothing better than that.

CJC: Let me ask you regarding the skin problems, and your hair loss, have you talked to any other physician about that?

VL: No, nothing but Uh Doctor.... (to Betty Cash) what's his name?

BC: Shoney.

VL: Dr. Shoney... yeah I talked to Dr. Shoney.

CJC: Is this the same doctor that Ms. Cash had been seeing?

VL: Yes, but I never did see him as a patient, I was there now with Betty so much and talked to him, but ah, this doctor that saw me was... (to Betty) what was his name?

CL: Easley.

VL: ... that said that about the...

BC: Oh, uh... Easley, Dr. Easley radiologist at the Medical Center in Houston.

CJC: Where? ... in Houston?

VL: ... at the Medical Center.

VL: Uh huh.

CJC: Did he tell you anything?

VL: No sir, nobody's never told me nothing. Except my family doctor told me that he couldn't doctor me because he didn't know nothing about it and he didn't... that he would do me more harm than good and he wasn't about to.

CJC: OK, now have you had to pay any doctor bills as a result of this.

VL: Yes sir!

CJC: Can you give us some idea of how much you've had in the way of doctor bills... Ms. Landrum?

VL: Let's see...(pause) I'd say approximately about six or seven hundred dollars on my eyes and Colby's eyes.

CJC: OK, alright... and how about you Ms. Cash? Can you give us any...?

BC: I would imagine that mine has been around ten thousand dollars, or better.

CJC: OK...

End of cassette side.

CJC: OK... alright now let me ask you ah... and again would you give me just a basic physical description of yourself, height and weight-wise, would you mind doing that for me Ms. Cash?, just for the record.

BC: Well I'm supposed to be five-five and a half, but I think I shrink with age (laughs)... and I weigh 112 pounds... now, because I have lost some weight.

CJC: What was your weight at the time of the incident?

BC: 118.

CJC: OK, and you Ms. Landrum, would you describe yourself?

VL: Well, I'm five feet exactly and I weigh uh... well I weigh about 138 pounds.

CJC: OK, and how much... have you suffered any weight loss?

VL: Um... well, yes sir, cause I weighed a hundred... about 162 pounds, I was too heavy, so its... I guess my weight loss has done me a little good. (chuckles) (unintelligible)-wise.

CJC: OK.

CL: Where's the bathroom at?

CJC: ... the bathroom at?... um... will you take him...

VL: (breaking in) but now the little boy, now he went from a size... I mean... he uh... he was in a 6 slim blue jean and they fit him perfect, and when I went to buy him some clothes the other day, and I got them on him, and I had to go back to a 5 slim blue jean...

CJC: OK...

VL: (breaking in) ... But what's so terrible about it, now this is what the doctor in Houston told me and another... um... even that Dr. Rank from Wisconsin... he told me the same thing, that there's a possibility within the next, he'd be safe to say within the next eight to twelve years that Colby would come down with a form of leukemia, which wouldn't be leukemia, but... and if he was treated for leukemia it could kill him.

CJC: Who was the doctor that was telling you this?

VL and BC: Oh... ah... wasn't it Dr. Shoney and a Dr. Peter Rank said there's a possibility because they don... I mean, nobody knows how much radiation he might have consumed, or what kind it might could been, but it had to be radiation to have burned us like we were burned.

CJC: Let me ask you Ms. Landrum, is there any history of ah... cancer in your family?

VL: No.

CJC: OK, have you ever had a relative or blood relative that had had cancer?

VL: No.... no.

CJC: OK, ... Ms. Cash...?

BC: No.

CJC: Alright now...

VL: (breaking in) I had a son that was a diabetic, my mother was a diabetic, but there's never been a cancer.

CJC: Now help me with... is it Coby?

VL: Uh huh.

CJC: How do you spell...

VL: C-O-L-B-Y.

CJC: Colby, C-O-L-B-Y.

VL: Right.

CJC: Now is... whose son is he?

VL: He's my... um... His father's name is Paul Landrum he's my son, he's my middle son and him and his wife divorced when Colby was seven months old and he couldn't take care of him, and uh... his mother didn't want him... so...

CJC: (breaking in) OK, so Colby's your grandson living with you.

VL: Right, I've got custody of him, he's my responsibility; he's mine... you know?

CJC: OK, do you live with anybody else?

VL: My husband.

CJC: OK, and what's his name?

VL: His name's Art (unintelligible) Wilson Landrum... Senior.

CJC: Alright. is there anything else that y'all can... tell us that would... about the incident as far as... has anybody else within the Air Force or within the government contacted you... about this incident?

VL: No. And I wrote Charles Wilson, he wrote me back a write-off letter and I turned it over and wrote him a letter back.

CJC: You say a write-off letter...?

VL: Huh!... Well it was a thing where UFOs had been discontinued since nineteen and seventy three I believe it said, and he gave me a whole list of who I MIGHT be able to contact.... and I turned it back over and I told him exactly how I felt and I...

BC: Well, I said one thing... I laid in that hospital and suffered that thirteen days before I would even level with my doctor.

VL: I told Colby not to tell nobody...

BC: ... 'cause I didn't want anybody to think I was crazy 'cause I had never believed in things like this. But it definitely didn't have little green men with pointed ears.

CJC: Did you see anybody?

VL and BC: No we didn't see nobody... no.

CJC: Let me talk to Colby a minute. Colby, how old are you?

CL: Seven.

CJC: 'Kay... let's get a little bit closer here so we make sure we get down everything you're saying on this tape, OK?

CL: OK.

CJC: Now, why don't you tell me what you saw... that night.

CL: I don't know what it was, but all I know is it was some kind of object.

CJC: What color was it?

CL: Kinda yellowish-red.

CJC: Yellowish-red?... and uh... how long did you see it?

CL: Uh... for about... stayed there for about... 15 to 20 minutes.

CJC: OK, now what happened whenever you saw it?... what did you feel like?

CL: (pause)... I just... wondered what it was... sitting there wondering what it was.

CJC: What happened to your body when you looked at it?

CL: I didn't feel nothing until I got up the next morning.

CJC: What happened the next morning?

CL: I just had... bad virus.

CJC: Bad virus? Why don't you tell me what happened.... did you go to the bathroom... what happened when you went to the bathroom?

CL: Runny... it was all runny.

CJC: It was all runny? What about your stomach?

CL: It was just hurting real bad.

CJC: Did you throw up any?

CL: Uh.. don't remember if I did or not.

CJC: What happened to your hair?

CL: Just a little... little bitty place started coming out.

CJC: Did you lose all of your hair or just part of it?

CL: Part of it.

CJC: Ok...

CL: (continuing) ... not even part of it really, just that spot right there.

CJC: Right... The top of your head? .. right here, the crown?

CL: Uh huh...

CJC: (continuing) ... on the very tip-top part of your head? What about your eyes?

CL: They... every time I get in the pool, they start... getting real red.

CJC: The swimming pool? What happens to your skin when you get in the sunlight?

CL: Sunburned.

CJC: Does it burn real fast after you've been out there?, or do you have to be out for awhile?

CL: Have to be out there for about a hour or 30 minutes.

CJC: OK... what happened to your face whenever you... later on after you saw this thing in the sky... what happened to you?

CL: I don't remember... it's been so long ago.

CJC: It's been what?, six months ago?... Did you have any problem with a blister on your side of your face?

CL: (pause)... yes... a little bit.

CJC: OK, what happened?

CL: They started popping ... uh... every time I got in the sun they'd pop.

CJC: OK. Are you sick anymore?

CL: Sometimes... this morning... my stomach was starting to hurt this morning... when I was eating... went to Dairy Queen to eat.

CJC: What about whenever you go to the bathroom? Do you still have problems with it being real soft?

CL: Mmmmmmmm.

CJC: OK, alright. Thank you Colby... Um... regarding relative to Colby, have you had any expenses regarding his treatment?

VL: Nothing but his eyes, I've been doctoring him at home for the simple reason that um... see I always worked, and uh... when I got so I couldn't work anymore... on what my husband makes... he has a good job, compared to what, you know... not compared to what some people have, but his take home pay is $243.00 a week, by the time we pay rent, bills and our car note and gas for him to go back and to work, there's very little left for groceries much less for medical bills... so I doctor him at home, or I don't doctor him, unless... if he was to get real real sick because they couldn't find out what was wrong with Betty, and I'm not going to put him through all this... all of that unless they come up with something that they can that they can doctor him with, without doctoring him for everything under the book.

CJC: Let me ask you, your relationship again... was just one of friends? or are y'all related by blood?

BC and VL: Friends...

VL: I was working after work, at a little place she had out on the... and we were moving, in the process of moving to a bigger place, and we were just out riding around, you know like friends do, and we run into this thing, and just like I wrote the uh... congress, and uh... way I feel, that if our government don't know what that was that hurt us... we're in a bad shape... because it had to be manmade.

CJC: Uh huh... why do you say it had to be manmade?

VL: Well, I don't think nobody... don't think there are any little green men out there to make one.

CJC: So you don't believe in life on other planets.

VL: I sure didn't.

CJC: OK... how about you Ms. Cash?

BC: I never have believed in it either.

CJC: OK. So its fair to say then, let me see if you agree with this, that you ah... saw this object in the sky and it was being accompanied by some helicopters which you believe to be from the United States Air Force.... and...

VL: (breaking in) I don't say it's from the Air Force... I didn't see no sign... no name on them or nothing, I was too busy, like said wish the baby, and when we stopped looking at them and everything, he was showing me, you know, the kind, and, but they had the twin rotaries on them, and when we had our um... aircraft day rodeo, there was one just like the one we saw that lit in Dayton with a load of uh... National Guard that was going to march in the parade that evening, and I went up there and talked to the helicopter... I mean I didn't say a word, we was just talking about uh... the shape of a helicopter and everything, it was just astonishing. And I said, do these things ever fly anymore? And he said we were called out the night of the 29th by the Harris county Sheriff's Department...

BC: Montgomery County... Montgomery County.

VL: Montgomery County Sheriff's Department, and when a certain person ah... confronted him with it, he told him that he had heard about the incident but they wasn't called out. But that exactly what he told me, and I've got his autograph because of, you know, a little boy back up there, I got his autograph, and it's right there.

CJC: OK, Do you have that with you?

BC: Did I bring that with me?

VL: Yeah, I hope you did.

CJC: Why don't you give us everything that you brought with you that's related to this, ah... to what you saw, and if there's any way we can make copies of it then we'll give it a try to.

BC: (rummaging through things) I'm not sure that Don gave me that...

VL: It's in a red envelope... shoot... I didn't ask him for that, he told me that and then I guess he figured he'd said the wrong thing... but uh... that's not it... nope...

CTD: Is that a picture of the type of helicopter?

VL: What?

CTD: ... of the type of helicopter you saw?

VL and BC:

VL: No, this is one that they're gonna be bringing out in 1981.

BC: Have you got it?

VL: Huh?

BC: In your purse... it was in there, with those pictures.

CL: Somebody... I hope we didn't go off and leave it...

VL: Stay right here.

BC: We didn't bring yours?

VL: ... yeah, I got mine, in the car. Can I go outside and come back in?

CJC: Sure...

PW: Do you know your way out?

CJC: Ms. Landrum, come... OK...

VL: (leaving) ... I got my, uh...

BC: Wait, wait, wait, wait, here it is, here it is- (laughs)

CJC: (loudly calling out) She found... Ms. Landrum!

PW: I should be able to read the (unintelligible) on the machine.

CJC: OK, Miss Wolf, would you take the photographs that ah... she showed to us. (to BC and VL) May I take those that you brought here today?

PW:

(All talking at once)

CJC: ... and ah... the documents.... I understand...

BC:

VL: ... (unintelligible) at home, I'm sorry... I'm not real proud of that one there...

CJC: I understand...

BC: This is like...

VL: I just got to pull my wig off about a month ago...

CTD: This is like the helicopter that looked... and this is uh.. see this here? ... Now you see that says Army National Guard...

VL: (breaking in) Well, I mean this... I've taken these pictures here by myself, 'cause I was wanting to satisfy, cause when this one started over... you know, Dayton, I was living right there the edge of Dayton, he like to had a fit because he thought that the thing was coming back to get him.

CTD: Now you see, that says Army National Guard, and a big...

VL: Yeah but...

CTD: ... insignia of Texas...

VL: I know...

CTD: ... did you see that at all, was that on the...?

BC: (emphatic) No I did not!, because I was not in the city of Dayton at the time.

(All talking at once)

VL: She didn't, She didn't see this one...

CTD: No, no, no, no....

CJC: Hold on a second... We were talking on about the night in question, the night you supposedly saw the object in the sky, the UFO.

BC: No, no.

VL: The only thing... I... the only thing I can tell you is that, to me they, they looked just like this, and I couldn't see nothing on them.

CJC: How were you able to count them at night?... did they...

VL: Well, like I say, I might have counted more or less, but I was saying: one, two, three, because they were coming, I mean, even when we got down there uh to the um, bank we could look back and there were some that were, were going like... they were going toward it. I mean some of them wasn't the double rotary type, some of them was the other type, I mean just a... like, you know they weren't quite as big, but what caught our eyes was the ones that had the double rotaries up there.

BC: They're weird looking.

CTD: OK...

VL: Well they really were!

CTD: The double rotary one was the one you saw "U.S. Air Force" on...?

BC: Right.

CTD: ... and it... you did not remember seeing anything like... that looked like a silhouette of the State of Texas?

BC: No.

CJC: OK... Pat, see if we can make ah... copies of...

VL: (breaking in) Well, I mean, I don't care if you have those because the pilot told me that...

BC: (breaking in) Well I do... 'cause that one's mine.

VL: (to BC) No... what I'm talking about is I don't care if he has a copy.

BC: Oh.... no I don't mind him having a copy.

CJC: OK... no, I'm going to give it back.

VL: But... ah... ah... he told me that and when I called this certain person... and uh... he said, try to get his autograph... and uh... when I said... look... the way I done it, I said well Lord be Hallelujah, somebody has really... up and... really somebody that, that really knew something was up there, you know, and he says: "what you mean?" And I said because we were the ones that were hurt that night. And then when this guy called, well he had just heard about it, he didn't...

(break in recording)

CTD:What does your husband do?

VL: He works at Richmond Tank Company at Shelby.

CTD: What's his job, what...?

VL: He's a... um... he runs a... uh, uh, uh, now wait now, let me... um... (nervous laugh)... anyway...

CTD: Brake.

VL: He did do brake work, and now they got him where ah, he's old enough where he just walks around a running the tests's on all the cars, they call it some kind of tests, you know, where they test the brakes, and if they any leaks, well then he tells somebody where its happening.

CTD: Does he have some type of medical insurance at all?

VL: Yes sir, but you can't get no doctor to help you get into the hospital or nothing.

CTD: But you did have some type of medical insurance.

VL: Oh, yes sir.

CTD: What about you? Did you work anyplace?

VL: I have Medicare.

BC: OK. Did you work at that time anyplace?

CTD: No, no I wasn't... the reason we was just out tooling around.

CTD: Are you retired, or ...?

BC: No, I'm not retired, I'm just not able to go back to work.

CJC: Well, she did have her own business.

BC: I had, well James did, I didn't, and I got a divorce.

CTD: OK, have you just gotten a divorce when this happened?

BC: Right.

CTD: 'Bout how long ago?

BC: Well, I had filed for it in January, or February, and I had gotten it in, what, July or August.

CJC: 1980?

BC: Yes... it was about six - seven months, when I got it.

CTD: And you got the business that you... you and your husband had?

BC: Closed it up.

CTD: You closed it up... what kind of business was it?

BC: It was a restaurant and a grocery store... couldn't make no money (nervous laugh).

CL: Can we go for ice cream?

CTD: OK, now I asked you earlier, uh... you came here because Senator Benson had recommended that you come here.

BC: Yes.

CJC: Is there anything in particular you hope to gain by coming and talking with um... us in the Air Force, to people in the Air Force?

BC: (emphatically) Sure! That's the main purpose we're here.

CJC: Alright, would you... this is again for you to tell me... why don't you tell me what you hope to gain, Ms. Cash.

BC: Well, I hope to find out what the object was, and what the purpose of it was, being there on the road at the time, and God forbid I don't ever want anything to happen to any of my family or my friends, even to you or your family, even to an animal to what I've had to go through. It would satisfy my mind to find out what it was and what it was doing there. I believe that our federal government... we've GOT to have secrets, let's face it, in a very severe time like we are going through right now...

CL: Who's supposed to protect us?

BC: ...but things that hurt the American people, then I think it's time they should be stopped.

CJC: OK, Ms. Landrum, what is your hopes or aspirations with coming and talking with us today?

BC: Well, that's what I'm hoping for, there has to be an answer somewhere, you know?...

CL: Right.

VL: ... And what better place is it than a part of the government, because they're supposed to protect us anyway, right? Because my husband went over there and fought for two and a half years... he got two purple hearts out of the deal, and if you're not protected, what did he go over there for?

CJC: OK. Alright, now I'll have to confirm what, ah... I think it's... Representative Williamson said: that since 1969 the Air Force no longer has been made... has been the responsible agency to investigate UFO sightings... some of the history that the Congressman told you is correct... ah... before 1969 there was a Project Bluebook... which Project Bluebook basically was just to keep up with all the sightings... all incidents where individuals had seen UFOs and what had happened. In 1969, that was one of the things that Congress said that the Air Force will not do anymore. Then in 1974 - 1975, the President of the United States at that time recommended that NASA, The National Aeronautics and Space Administration see if it would serve any national interest to reopen Project Bluebook with the idea of researching UFOs and occurrences as they happen in the United States. It was the response back of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration that they not reopen Project Bluebook. Now the reason I'm telling you this is that once you tell you me your story today, I am without any power at all to do anything here a this level...

BC: (agitated) Well now, what can we do?

CJC: OK... Alright... just let me say I'm not, can I get in the position of advising you to do one (chuckle) thing or another, but let me just tell you that, other than hearing your story, I have nobody to refer it to higher than this base here, with the exception of the agency of the Air Force that used to investigate UFO sightings and keep up with it. Now that office I'll be more than happy to forward a brief report of what happened today and what you told us and it will be up to them to determine whether or not they will take any action with respect to it. Ms. Cash, Ms. Landrum, I do not know...

VL: (very agitated) Where... but where do we go?...

CJC: Well...

VL: (very agitated) What do we do?

CTD: Did you get a letter that mentions the National Archives, and the organizations that investigate UFOs?... that you said you got from Charles Wilson, I believe?... do you have that?

VL: No, I, I turned it over and wrote him a letter back.

CTD: But do you have the letter he sent to you?

VL: Huh?... No, I turned it over and wrote him a letter on the back side of it...

CTD: OK...

VL: ... and sent it back to him.

CJC: Ms. Landrum, the situation is this, at one time, the federal government investigated these claims, complaints of what happened, but there are such... there's such a large number of private organizations like you've already been in contact with that also have started investigating, that Congress has essentially said that it serves no useful purpose to have all these private organizations investigating it and have the United States Government investigate it as well. Now, in other words there'd be no value in doing two reports and if these separate companies or groups that investigate UFO sightings can do a good job investigating it then there's really no need for the Air Force or for the Army or anybody else to investigate it as well. Now it sounds that you have generated quite a bit of interest from these other groups, I know that this gentleman that called and talked with you, also you're going to meet with some other people, and there was a scientist that said that he wanted to keep your fingernail clippings to subject them to some tests... Ah... I can give you an address of the agency in Washington that used to investigate these complaints and they will send you back a package of private organization such as those you've been in contact with already...(unintelligible, covered by:)

VL: (breaking in) Well, we've only been in contact with one.

CJC: OK, I cannot sit here and say how many there are or where they're located...

VL: (breaking in, agitated) Look!... I mean... AH...

CJC: ... (continuing) and they will send you an effective package of people to contact and, you know, maybe even want to get in contact with you regarding what happened to you, and see what's to be done...

VL: To put it point blank, what we thought maybe you could give us an answer of where to go from here, or what to do, because I'm gonna find the answer...

CJC: Well as I said...

VL:

VL: (continuing) ... it might take me a lifetime but I intend to find it.

CJC: Well, my intentions are in no way to frustrate you if I can help you... (unintelligible, covered by:)

VL: (breaking in) You know what I mean though...

CJC: Yes, I understand...

VL: ... because I'm gonna find the answer, and it had to be something the government had up there, you know, and I intend to find it.

CJC: Well, what I'm going suggest is this... we will prepare a report, and again, it'll be nothing more than just a letter saying that we met with you today, and that we have copies of the tape recordings of our conversation as well as Xerox copies of, you know, what we were able to copy at the time, and we'll forward this to this agency in Washington that formerly investigated it, it will have to be up to them whether to contact you to further to... to open up a special investigation into it, or to correspond with you directly, but that is the only thing I can do for you at this time.

BC: Well, who is responsible for us being injured?

CJC: (pause)... I'm afraid I can't answer that, again, I, you know... based upon the story that you said, you know, maybe you would like to consult a civilian attorney and see what action he'd like to take to with respect to that, relative to whether or not I can confirm or deny that I do not have that ability, nor do I have that knowledge, as to whether or not it in fact occurred.

VL: We just thought we might be get some answers if we came up here, and I guess we drove (chuckle) all that far for nothing.

CJC: Well, I can assure you...

BC: Well, it was a clear try, I mean they've been nice, and I appreciate it.

VL: I know, I really appreciate it, but I don't want no more uh, uh... investigators having me go over the deal, because uh... the thing about is I was hypnotized, I have the tape if they want to hear the tape, that's fine, but I don't intend to go through it anymore.

CJC: I understand. Well I can assure you that a bunch of lawyers...

VL: (breaking in) I don't, I don't, and there's a lot of quacks, there really is, that's uh... supposed to be big UFO dealers and wheelers, and they're not after hunting the truth, they after something... proving something that's unreal, and it's... what was up there was real, it hurt us, it wasn't outer space either.

BC: And they're out for a story. And once they make their few dollars off their stories, which is not true nine times out of ten, parts of it, I can say may be, if you're fortunate, but uh... they misconstrue it quite often too.

CJC: Well, sometimes they're out to make a sensational story, they'll get people to buy their publication, to read it, but my interest in this is, you know, I have no intentions of making any type of report to the newspaper or anything, I will do exactly as...

BC: (at same time as CJC above:) Right... right, right.

VL: Don't put that on his arm, it would hurt him probably.

CJC: That's OK, I got a little boy just about your age myself... Ah... my intentions are to hear what you had to say this morning and to try to get it into an agency of the Air Force or portion of the Air Force that could help you. I must be frank with you and tell you that I know of no such part of the Air Force that today investigates these complaints but, on your behalf, I will forward it on to that agency and say, look this is what these people reported to me. I give it to you to decide if you want to do something with it or not, if you want to do something with it then fine, but, you know, unfortunately Senator Benson in referring you here... we're an agency that has not investigated UFO sightings in almost eleven years. And then we were, in effect, told by the Congress and the President that we would not be doing that anymore.

BC: Well, he didn't tell me to come here for you to investigate UFO, he said to come here to file a claim.

CJC: OK, now if you wish to file a claim, we can help you in that respect.

VL: That's why (unintelligible)... that's what we want to do.

CJC: OK, if you wish to do that... Miss Wolf... we have the documents and the paperwork to assist you in getting started along those lines, but I must tell you at the beginning, OK, in as much that I am a government attorney as is Captain Davis... we cannot provide you with legal advice...

VL: ... Well, we don't need any legal advice.

CJC: ... the claims forms are the forms which, and they're self explanatory...

VL: 'Cause, we have the proof, and when you have the proof, you don't need legal advice.

CJC: Well... that's... that's true, I'm sure... but anyhow, the ah... the forms are self explanatory, Miss Wolf will give them to you and if you wish to go ahead and file a claim, then, you know we'll process it in that respect, OK? Now let me ask you, do you wish that I go forward with this information to Washington?

BC: (emphatically) Sure!

CJC: ... or that I hold it back and attach it to your claim?

BC: Well, send it on in.

VL: Either way, either way, (unintelligible)... the better I'd like it. It doesn't make any difference to me.

CJC: OK. Again, my intentions in talking with you today was to find out as much as possible about what happened...

VL: (breaking in) And we appreciate it, because ah... ah, we've been trying for seven, almost eight months now... ah to get answers which we get pieces, a little here, a little there till, um... its pretty well... like a puzzle you're putting together.. and... we gonna get it together... it's gonna be fit together.

CTD: We suggest that ah... you get advice from a civilian attorney about filling out your claim forms and filing a claim.

BC: OK.

CJC: Primarily so that whenever you go to process it, or once it's submitted that everything you need to have is there, and all the things you may be claiming against are attached to the claims document, and we have everything, you know, to go by... now I'm sure they'll require some written statement as to what happened to you, and if you'd like, you can reference the conversation that we had today... ah... but I'll assure you that it'll be given the same consideration as any other claim that is made against the government, as far as to determining whether or not it's a claim that the United States Government should pay, and, you know, it'll be treated with, you know, the same type of consideration that we give the others... Captain Davis, would you like to explain to them the claims procedure?

CTD: Ok, we got enough for both of 'em?

PW: Um hum.

CJC: ... have to be one for each of you... one for Colby, one for Eunice Cash, one for Eunice Landrum.

CJC: ... And you'll need two... and you'll need... The forms are self-explanatory, but you'll need to sign 'em, all this original and like I said, you may want to consult with a civilian attorney to get the best advice on what to do ... but uh ... the claim forms are really self-explanatory.

VL: OK.

CL: I want to sign.

CJC: I think you'll have to wait a few years before you'll know how.

VL: If you wouldn't mind, (unintelligible) here's our address, you can just mail it to Dayton.

CTD: ... Dayton is in our...

VL: (unintelligible)

BC: I appreciate you taking your time to listen, because you would be surprised that we have... of the people... the doctors even, that don't want to treat a person if they think you've had radiation burns. You would be surprised, and if you doubt me, get 'em and try to get a physician to test you.

CJC: I'm sure I'll take your word for it, Ms. Cash.

BC: (laughs)

CTD: Your name begins with a "C", C-A-S-H?

BC: Right.

CTD: OK.

CJC: OK... I'm glad you came by here today, and again my intentions are to help you in any way I can from the standpoint of getting you channeled into the right Air Force Agency, I also have the obligation to tell you that we have no such agency to investigate or to find out from it, and I must tell you that as well, 'cause I don't have the authority here to create one...

BC: (breaking in) Right...

VL: (breaking in) If you can't find a good one, just throw it in the garbage.

BC: (laughs)

CJC: We won't do that, we'll keep it for sure...

BC: ...because we've had enough of these...

PW: We will need to have these forms filled out, in the original and two carbon copies, but you'll have to sign all three copies, Ok?... and as for your son here, since you're his legal guardian you will sign...

BC: Fill each form with two carbon copies?

PW: Yes ma'am... Un huh... Put the two carbons in and just fill out the one form and it'll come through, but do sign each one.

CJC: OK, thank you very much for coming by.

BC: Well thank you, I'm sorry that we took up your time, but we had to get...

CJC: My time is your time.

VL: That's the reason I was hypnotized, because, I mean, I, I, I knew I wasn't lying, and I did it because I wanted these other people to know I wasn't lying, so ah...

CJC: OK, if you would please, ah... just so that... since we referenced it in our conversation, the letter from Senator Benson, if you would you please let us have it...

BC: Surely.

CJC: ... you know, it would give us a document...

VL: I appreciate him sending it to me, it's more than we could get out of anybody else... so I really appreciated him taking up his time.

CJC: OK, well we certainly appreciate you coming by... do you-all need any help in getting off base, or anything?

VL: No, I think we can make it.

BC: We found it. (laughs)

VL: The only thing is terrible my eyes are bad and I can hardly see how to drive, and she... her being in the hospital and everything, she forgot she had a birthday, and when she was sick down here a while ago she got expired driver's license!

BC: Oh dear! (laughs)

VL: Well, I guess I'll have to drive back today...

VL and BC: (Both together laughing and joking about driving home)

BC: ... Unless I go downtown and get my driver's license...

VL: (breaking in) Reckon she could get 'em down here?

CJC: Oh, yes, there are several places here and they'll make them for you while you wait, there's one down on, what is that? (unintelligible), isn't that a big testing center there?

VL: She really needs to drive me back.

BC: Yes, because (unintelligible, laughing)

CL: (talking about driving)

VL: You don't want Betty a driving with an expired driver's license.

CJC: Well, thank you...

BC: (laughing)

VL: ... Betty, got her shook up, she give up... turned left on right hand signal right down there, (laughs).

CJC: Thank you ma'am, y'all have a good day.

(Cassette end)

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